Men Talk -- Women Talk
But Do They Talk Together?Where is your relationship?
Don't let gender misunderstandings hurt your relationship.
By Pat McChristie
Men and women talk. But do they talk together and do they talk about things that are interesting to their mate/partner? Another gender misunderstanding that can hurt relationships.
When men get together, they rarely, if ever, talk about their feelings or inner thoughts.
Rather, they talk about practical matters, like their latest computer update, how to repair their car, or even business.
Talk might move to the best place to find fish or women, jump to computer games, then continue to the Cowboys or the sport of the season.
They also like to exchange jokes and anecdotes and spend a fair amount of time playing one-up and boasting.
Men rarely call each other to chat and be brought up to date.
When man meets woman, he usually wants to make a good impression. Many single men try hard to carry on witty, fun, and pleasant conversations. They use conversation to discover her interests and feelings in order to learn how to be attractive to her.
Some men, either out of nervousness or ignorance, spend most of the time talking about themselves, often appearing to brag about their achievements or talk incessantly about their problems or work. But regardless of the subject matter, even the quietest man talks to his woman when love is new.
When women get together, they talk about feelings and relationships, their work, and their family. They enjoy talking but also want the give and take of talk, then listen.
Women often call each other to keep up to date. Conversing is an important part of most female's lives.
As relationships progress, however, many a man turns on the television and forgets how to converse. This raises a hue and cry from his female partner who says, "You never talk to me anymore."
Some men start talking. Many, however, primarily discuss their own achievements and problems or even revert to their male buddy kind of talk.
When the woman starts talking about her favorite subjects: feelings, family, relationships, friends, her work, many men lose interest or bring the conversation back to themselves.
Pretty soon, the man is back to staring at the television each night, wondering where his relationship went, or too dense to know it is dying. The woman is talking to her friends, mom, sister, or neighbor, often about that very relationship and how she is hurting.
Where is your relationship? Don't let gender misunderstandings hurt your relationship
Tuesday, July 10, 2007
Wednesday, May 30, 2007
MY COMMENT ON 'WHY MEN DON'T TALK LIKE WOMEN DO'
Communication Communication Communication!!
Effective, supportive communication plays the most crucial role in any relationship. It is often a foreign concept for men to communicate about their feelings. The world we live in do not support men showing and verbally expressing their feelings and vulnerabilities and dealing with them in the open. Society have trained men in general to be strong, tough, unemotional. Consequently, we have men who are not able to deal with their feelings and those of others'. Unlike women who have traditionally been expected to hold the nurturing and supporting roles, men have been conditioned to focus on independence and autonomy, disregarding their emotions. So much so that many men become ineffective and feel uncomfortable when it comes to making emotional connection in their relationships through communication.
Men are mostly goal-oriented if and when communication is to take place. Women, on the other hand, do not necessarily seek solutions to their problems. Women communicate to make an emotional connection by sometimes talking about and sharing their feelings/problems/issues.
In the end, women have to step up to the plate and understand men and their behaviors and what they entail because we literally speak two different languages. John Gray was not just speaking figuratively when he said 'Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus'. He was being literal about it from the fact that we speak one language, but that we attach different meanings to the things we say to each other. Most 'manly' men are reluctant to pick up those self-improvement/self-help books. They live by 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' rule. Women, on the other hand, tend to always want to improve for the better. We end up having to read these books, make appts to see a therapist/relationship expert to help our relationships, talk to our girlfriends about issues we are having in our relationships. Then when we return to our men, we have to wait for them until they are ready to listen and be receptive enough for a relationship discussion, which to some men, it is that dreaded 'feelings' discussion all over again. So, sometimes it seems like it is a 'lose-lose' situation women go through. Our downfall is precisely our very attraction towards the so-called opposite sex creatures namely 'men'. And it goes both ways too. I am certain that men are not free from having to deal with women and our issues. Neither of us can help ourselves with this life phenomenon called the 'opposite sex attraction'. It certainly causes both sides tremendous stress over our life-time. Hence, the saying : 'Can't live with them, can't live without them'. And that is part of the reason why I welcome the sight and the notion of same sex attraction and relationships. I see a light of hope at the end of the tunnel. Though same sex relationships is far from drama-free either. It's a whole different ball game there!
Effective, supportive communication plays the most crucial role in any relationship. It is often a foreign concept for men to communicate about their feelings. The world we live in do not support men showing and verbally expressing their feelings and vulnerabilities and dealing with them in the open. Society have trained men in general to be strong, tough, unemotional. Consequently, we have men who are not able to deal with their feelings and those of others'. Unlike women who have traditionally been expected to hold the nurturing and supporting roles, men have been conditioned to focus on independence and autonomy, disregarding their emotions. So much so that many men become ineffective and feel uncomfortable when it comes to making emotional connection in their relationships through communication.
Men are mostly goal-oriented if and when communication is to take place. Women, on the other hand, do not necessarily seek solutions to their problems. Women communicate to make an emotional connection by sometimes talking about and sharing their feelings/problems/issues.
In the end, women have to step up to the plate and understand men and their behaviors and what they entail because we literally speak two different languages. John Gray was not just speaking figuratively when he said 'Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus'. He was being literal about it from the fact that we speak one language, but that we attach different meanings to the things we say to each other. Most 'manly' men are reluctant to pick up those self-improvement/self-help books. They live by 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' rule. Women, on the other hand, tend to always want to improve for the better. We end up having to read these books, make appts to see a therapist/relationship expert to help our relationships, talk to our girlfriends about issues we are having in our relationships. Then when we return to our men, we have to wait for them until they are ready to listen and be receptive enough for a relationship discussion, which to some men, it is that dreaded 'feelings' discussion all over again. So, sometimes it seems like it is a 'lose-lose' situation women go through. Our downfall is precisely our very attraction towards the so-called opposite sex creatures namely 'men'. And it goes both ways too. I am certain that men are not free from having to deal with women and our issues. Neither of us can help ourselves with this life phenomenon called the 'opposite sex attraction'. It certainly causes both sides tremendous stress over our life-time. Hence, the saying : 'Can't live with them, can't live without them'. And that is part of the reason why I welcome the sight and the notion of same sex attraction and relationships. I see a light of hope at the end of the tunnel. Though same sex relationships is far from drama-free either. It's a whole different ball game there!
WHY DON'T MEN TALK LIKE WOMEN DO
By David Zinczenko
Here's a great irony: Men, in general, are happy in their relationships. And yet women -- the very people responsible for making guys so happy -- spend a great deal of time fretting over whether their men want to stay in the relationship or are waiting to catch the next bus out of it. Indeed, women spend so much time fretting that they often ask men to talk more about ... gasp! ... their feelings. And the one thing that can make a contented guy discontented is being asked to talk about his feelings. It's like cooking up a great souffle, and then opening the oven to check on it -- and presto, the souffle goes flat.
It's not that you should never ask a man about his feelings. But it's all about technique: you need to coax him to that place where he can share; pushing him just makes him stubborn.
Don't use the f-word
The problem for a lot of guys is that talking feelings with a woman is like talking French with a native Parisian. No matter how hard we study, we'll never master the language with quite the same fluency. So you need to make things a little simpler for us.
From our end, we'd prefer that you don't directly ask about the "f-word" -- feelings.
Say the word feelings to a man and it's like clipping your toenails during a striptease
Say the word feelings to a man and it's like clipping your toenails during a striptease -- total turn-off. The reason? We have feelings, but we don't have the access to them that you do. So every conversation that's pointedly about our feelings seems to us like the last 15 minutes of "Law & Order," where we're the perp and you're the clever detective, poking a finger in our face and hinting that you know just a little more than we do. And you do know a little more than we do. You know how you feel. And we don't know how we feel. So if you want us to talk, then help us speak your language -- by speaking a little of ours.
The point: If you want us to answer questions about what we're feeling, then stop asking about how we're feeling. Instead, watch how we behave, and where our interests lie. And be open about your feelings. The more you show comfort in expressing yourself, the more he'll do the same.
How do I know where the relationship is going?
I feel like I've hit a snag in a relationship with my boyfriend. We've been seeing each other for a few months. Everything was really great in the beginning. Now, it seems like we've fallen into that typical relationship routine. We see each other during the week, rent a movie on Fridays, and usually have sex twice a week (once after the movie). He's nice to me and treats me well, but I'd like to get things back to where they were. He tells me everything's fine, assures me he cares about me, and tells me not to worry about it. But I still do because what he says is one thing but what happens week to week is another. Any idea what he's thinking?
Yeah. He's thinking exactly what he's saying, which is that everything's fine. "
Women think that not talking about the relationship means there are problems, but it's the opposite for men
Women think that not talking about the relationship means there are problems, but it's the opposite for men. If we're not talking about it, it means we're happy," says Conner, 32. So the real question is not "What's he thinking?" It's "What are you thinking?" If you're content with the relationship you've got, then relax and enjoy it. And if you want more, say so. "If a man loves a woman, he'll prove it with daily action not just words," says Jimmy, 27. Either he'll step up to the plate, or what he's giving now is all he's got -- and maybe you need to move on.
Why don't guys answer emotional questions?
I've got a good friend who recently left her husband. They have one child who's eight, and my friend and her ex are now in this bitter disagreement about custody, about money, about who gets to see the daughter when. When I told my husband about it, I asked him how he felt about it, because these are really serious issues, and I figured he'd have really serious thoughts on them. Instead, he just sat there, shrugged his shoulders, and said, "That sucks." Does the man have no feelings?
Of course he has feelings, and he told you what they were: He feels the situation sucks. Oh, but wait ... you were looking for something more. Here's the problem: You wanted him to tune into your concerns, but the signal you were sending was fuzzier than a pirate radio station. It's the old "feelings" conundrum again. If you want to ask him how he'd handle a custody issue, then ask him how he'd handle a custody issue. If you want to know if he thinks it's wrong for one partner to give up on a marriage, then ask him about that. But don't ask him about his feelings and expect him to surmise that your telling him a story about the neighbors is some Aesop's fable for your relationship. "We're simple. Please, no hints or assumptions," says D.J., 26. "Say what you mean, mean what you say. Don't make us guess as if we know what you are trying to say or feel."
D.J.'s a bit of a wishful thinker. Just as men like direct, problem A/solution B equations, women seem to take a more poetic and metaphorical approach to communication. That's why communication between the sexes is so much work. To men, dealing with hypotheticals is fun when we're talking about pennant races and the stock market, not when you're asking us to project how we'd feel about anything really serious, like a breakup or infidelity or pizza toppings. In that case, direct questions will get you the answers you want: let's stay together, I'll be faithful forever, and no anchovies, please.
Why can't a guy just plan out our future?
My husband and I have two kids, a boy and a girl, ages three and six. I'm tired of taking the pill, so I've tried talking to my husband about other options. Specifically, I asked him if he wanted more kids. (I could go either way.) And if he didn't, then we should talk about a vasectomy. But he can't decide whether he wants more children, and he doesn't seem too thrilled with the idea of getting the vasectomy. Why doesn't he just tell me what he wants so then we can come up with some kind of game plan?
Your question contains this interesting phrase: "I could go either way." It sounds like you and your husband are both comfortable in a pair of flip-flops. In our polls and surveys, we've asked men about the vasectomy issue. John, 41, has been talking about a vasectomy with his wife, but they're having trouble getting at the root of who really wants to do what. "Neither of us will come right out and say we're done having kids. She thinks me not signing right up for the operation somehow means that I have this evil master plan: that if I dump her, I'll be able to have kids with some 22-year-old bimbo. But I just don't want to get one, because neither of us have closed the door on having kids, and if she's up for it, I'm up for it."
The fact is that men hate admitting that they don't have a plan, and with complex issues like this, it's hard for a guy to decide, unilaterally, the rest of both your lives. He's going to flip and flop like a beached sea bass until he knows for certain. And then, one day, he's just going to announce his decision.I know, it's hard living with us. Just don't try living without us.
Masculinity mastered: what you now know about men
"Feelings" is our f-word. Bleep it out of your conversational repertoire. Try pointed questions like "What do you think about...."
We feel everything's okay when we're not talking about feelings. When we're talking about feelings, we feel everything's on the rocks.
Backed into a corner, we won't let you into our heads. Give us some space and we'll let you in.
Say this tonight!
The sexiest thing a woman ever said to Dale, 32: "What would you like for breakfast?"
The sexiest thing Tricia, 28, ever said to a man: "I wish I could have you."
Say this, not that!
Say this: "What do you think about that?"
Not: "How do you feel about that?"
Because: He knows how to answer the first question, but the second one makes him nervous.
Say this: "I wish I could say this in a way that makes more sense to you."
Not: "You don't understand me."
Because: Miscommunication is a two-way street.
Say this: "Let's go for a drive."
Not: "Let's sit down and talk."
Because: Men are less tense when they're doing something physical.
Say anything: Once
Not: Ten times
Because: To a guy, repetition makes a statement meaningless.
What it means when....
He says, "I love you" for the first time (not during sex).
He does. And he thought it long before he ever said it.
He says, "Fine," in response to a question about how his day was.
Fine. If something significant happened, he'll tell you -- in a few hours.
He says, "Five," when you ask him how many women he's slept with.
Twelve.
Wondering woman
Why is it so hard for guys to write a personal message in a birthday card? Every year all I get is "Love, Jim."Â Five minutes on the way back from the drugstore doesn't give a whole lot of time to come up with something clever. Plus, he'd rather let a nice dinner and a show do the talking for him.
Male mysteries
27: Percentage of men who say they primarily fight with their wives or girlfriends about the fact that they don't share or talk about their feelings.
65: Percentage of men who don't want their partners to ask more questions about them.Excerpted by permission from "Men, Love & Sex, The Complete User's Guide for Women" by David Zinczenko with Ted Spiker; Rodale, 2006
Here's a great irony: Men, in general, are happy in their relationships. And yet women -- the very people responsible for making guys so happy -- spend a great deal of time fretting over whether their men want to stay in the relationship or are waiting to catch the next bus out of it. Indeed, women spend so much time fretting that they often ask men to talk more about ... gasp! ... their feelings. And the one thing that can make a contented guy discontented is being asked to talk about his feelings. It's like cooking up a great souffle, and then opening the oven to check on it -- and presto, the souffle goes flat.
It's not that you should never ask a man about his feelings. But it's all about technique: you need to coax him to that place where he can share; pushing him just makes him stubborn.
Don't use the f-word
The problem for a lot of guys is that talking feelings with a woman is like talking French with a native Parisian. No matter how hard we study, we'll never master the language with quite the same fluency. So you need to make things a little simpler for us.
From our end, we'd prefer that you don't directly ask about the "f-word" -- feelings.
Say the word feelings to a man and it's like clipping your toenails during a striptease
Say the word feelings to a man and it's like clipping your toenails during a striptease -- total turn-off. The reason? We have feelings, but we don't have the access to them that you do. So every conversation that's pointedly about our feelings seems to us like the last 15 minutes of "Law & Order," where we're the perp and you're the clever detective, poking a finger in our face and hinting that you know just a little more than we do. And you do know a little more than we do. You know how you feel. And we don't know how we feel. So if you want us to talk, then help us speak your language -- by speaking a little of ours.
The point: If you want us to answer questions about what we're feeling, then stop asking about how we're feeling. Instead, watch how we behave, and where our interests lie. And be open about your feelings. The more you show comfort in expressing yourself, the more he'll do the same.
How do I know where the relationship is going?
I feel like I've hit a snag in a relationship with my boyfriend. We've been seeing each other for a few months. Everything was really great in the beginning. Now, it seems like we've fallen into that typical relationship routine. We see each other during the week, rent a movie on Fridays, and usually have sex twice a week (once after the movie). He's nice to me and treats me well, but I'd like to get things back to where they were. He tells me everything's fine, assures me he cares about me, and tells me not to worry about it. But I still do because what he says is one thing but what happens week to week is another. Any idea what he's thinking?
Yeah. He's thinking exactly what he's saying, which is that everything's fine. "
Women think that not talking about the relationship means there are problems, but it's the opposite for men
Women think that not talking about the relationship means there are problems, but it's the opposite for men. If we're not talking about it, it means we're happy," says Conner, 32. So the real question is not "What's he thinking?" It's "What are you thinking?" If you're content with the relationship you've got, then relax and enjoy it. And if you want more, say so. "If a man loves a woman, he'll prove it with daily action not just words," says Jimmy, 27. Either he'll step up to the plate, or what he's giving now is all he's got -- and maybe you need to move on.
Why don't guys answer emotional questions?
I've got a good friend who recently left her husband. They have one child who's eight, and my friend and her ex are now in this bitter disagreement about custody, about money, about who gets to see the daughter when. When I told my husband about it, I asked him how he felt about it, because these are really serious issues, and I figured he'd have really serious thoughts on them. Instead, he just sat there, shrugged his shoulders, and said, "That sucks." Does the man have no feelings?
Of course he has feelings, and he told you what they were: He feels the situation sucks. Oh, but wait ... you were looking for something more. Here's the problem: You wanted him to tune into your concerns, but the signal you were sending was fuzzier than a pirate radio station. It's the old "feelings" conundrum again. If you want to ask him how he'd handle a custody issue, then ask him how he'd handle a custody issue. If you want to know if he thinks it's wrong for one partner to give up on a marriage, then ask him about that. But don't ask him about his feelings and expect him to surmise that your telling him a story about the neighbors is some Aesop's fable for your relationship. "We're simple. Please, no hints or assumptions," says D.J., 26. "Say what you mean, mean what you say. Don't make us guess as if we know what you are trying to say or feel."
D.J.'s a bit of a wishful thinker. Just as men like direct, problem A/solution B equations, women seem to take a more poetic and metaphorical approach to communication. That's why communication between the sexes is so much work. To men, dealing with hypotheticals is fun when we're talking about pennant races and the stock market, not when you're asking us to project how we'd feel about anything really serious, like a breakup or infidelity or pizza toppings. In that case, direct questions will get you the answers you want: let's stay together, I'll be faithful forever, and no anchovies, please.
Why can't a guy just plan out our future?
My husband and I have two kids, a boy and a girl, ages three and six. I'm tired of taking the pill, so I've tried talking to my husband about other options. Specifically, I asked him if he wanted more kids. (I could go either way.) And if he didn't, then we should talk about a vasectomy. But he can't decide whether he wants more children, and he doesn't seem too thrilled with the idea of getting the vasectomy. Why doesn't he just tell me what he wants so then we can come up with some kind of game plan?
Your question contains this interesting phrase: "I could go either way." It sounds like you and your husband are both comfortable in a pair of flip-flops. In our polls and surveys, we've asked men about the vasectomy issue. John, 41, has been talking about a vasectomy with his wife, but they're having trouble getting at the root of who really wants to do what. "Neither of us will come right out and say we're done having kids. She thinks me not signing right up for the operation somehow means that I have this evil master plan: that if I dump her, I'll be able to have kids with some 22-year-old bimbo. But I just don't want to get one, because neither of us have closed the door on having kids, and if she's up for it, I'm up for it."
The fact is that men hate admitting that they don't have a plan, and with complex issues like this, it's hard for a guy to decide, unilaterally, the rest of both your lives. He's going to flip and flop like a beached sea bass until he knows for certain. And then, one day, he's just going to announce his decision.I know, it's hard living with us. Just don't try living without us.
Masculinity mastered: what you now know about men
"Feelings" is our f-word. Bleep it out of your conversational repertoire. Try pointed questions like "What do you think about...."
We feel everything's okay when we're not talking about feelings. When we're talking about feelings, we feel everything's on the rocks.
Backed into a corner, we won't let you into our heads. Give us some space and we'll let you in.
Say this tonight!
The sexiest thing a woman ever said to Dale, 32: "What would you like for breakfast?"
The sexiest thing Tricia, 28, ever said to a man: "I wish I could have you."
Say this, not that!
Say this: "What do you think about that?"
Not: "How do you feel about that?"
Because: He knows how to answer the first question, but the second one makes him nervous.
Say this: "I wish I could say this in a way that makes more sense to you."
Not: "You don't understand me."
Because: Miscommunication is a two-way street.
Say this: "Let's go for a drive."
Not: "Let's sit down and talk."
Because: Men are less tense when they're doing something physical.
Say anything: Once
Not: Ten times
Because: To a guy, repetition makes a statement meaningless.
What it means when....
He says, "I love you" for the first time (not during sex).
He does. And he thought it long before he ever said it.
He says, "Fine," in response to a question about how his day was.
Fine. If something significant happened, he'll tell you -- in a few hours.
He says, "Five," when you ask him how many women he's slept with.
Twelve.
Wondering woman
Why is it so hard for guys to write a personal message in a birthday card? Every year all I get is "Love, Jim."Â Five minutes on the way back from the drugstore doesn't give a whole lot of time to come up with something clever. Plus, he'd rather let a nice dinner and a show do the talking for him.
Male mysteries
27: Percentage of men who say they primarily fight with their wives or girlfriends about the fact that they don't share or talk about their feelings.
65: Percentage of men who don't want their partners to ask more questions about them.Excerpted by permission from "Men, Love & Sex, The Complete User's Guide for Women" by David Zinczenko with Ted Spiker; Rodale, 2006
Tuesday, May 8, 2007
24 WAYS OF HOW TO BE A COOL/HAPPY INDO
Here's an updated list of how to be a cool/happy Indo. And since I AM first and foremost Indo, I do follow some of these rules from time to time. Im not perfect and I can use some improvements, but I do try my best.
24. Never give hugs to others, ESPECIALLY to the opposite sex, under any circumstances i.e. for special occassions, greetings, etc. because it is too intimate and it is ABSOLUTELY 'haram'! A handshake is always appropriate and sufficient.
23. ALWAYS look good FIRST and nevermind how you feel. Feeling good is NOT important. Remember the key is to fake it!
22. Never show emotions! It's just WRONG!
21. Never admit any wrongdoings/faults/guilts because it is a sign of weakness.
20. Never take sincere compliments from your friends because they never mean them anyways.
19. Always have 'gengsi' a.k.a. save face because we love fake people. Real people sucks.
18. Weather-talk makes for great conversation & is the best way to connect with people. Never share your real thoughts & ideas because they are much too personal.
17. Always be politically correct. Being politically incorrect is always rude and inappropriate. Remember our roots to always 'jaga image' aka 'ja-im'! It's the only way to go.
16. Never take reponsibilities for your words & actions so that you will not look bad in the end.
15. Turn down every opportunites to meet new friends. Be exclusive & stick with your old crowd. It's much safer this way.
14. Don't forget to bribe your way to get what you want. Money always talks.
13. Never be on time because being on time is only for serious, stiff, uptight people. We Indos are laid back!
12. Never be straightforward. Always be passive agressive. Then they'll get it and it's the only way to go! Saying what you mean and meaning what you say is only for lame people.
11. Show off to your friends your branded personal belongings i.e. your LV, Prada, Gucci, Versace, etc. The bigger and more visible the item/logo, the more prominent it is; and therefore, the better.
10. Do not have any integrity whatsoever to your words/what you say. Just make things up as you go.
9. Indo parents : Always play blind and be in denial about your kids and their love lives.
8. Impose unreasonable, strict, harsh rules to your kids while they are growing up; so that when they leave home for the United States to go to 'school', they can go buckwild!
7. Pay someone to take your exams, do your projects, & get you through college. And buy your diploma.
6. Buy the most expensive car so that the valey guy can park it right upfront when there is the annual Indo U Club party. And remember, you ain't hip unless you are seen in a BENZ or BMW rollin in Beverly Hills!
5. Never dance in the club. Just have a cel phone on your left hand & a cigarette on your right and drink yourself to death. This is cool!
4. Attend all the Indo parties.
3. Indo girls : NEVER get a suntan! It's a sin & you'll be cursed for life. You'll never get a boyfriend & you can forget about marriage. Cover all parts of your body i.e. your arms & neck with long sleeve shirts while you are driving your car. Don't forget to use the umbrella when the sun is out.
2. Make sure you visit Beijing/China before you die. Monterey Park & Chinatown do NOT count!
1. Make sure you sign up with friendster and log in EVERY DAY. Have at least 500 friends just for show because IT IS all about competition of who can get the most friends.
Feel free to add more to these rules
24. Never give hugs to others, ESPECIALLY to the opposite sex, under any circumstances i.e. for special occassions, greetings, etc. because it is too intimate and it is ABSOLUTELY 'haram'! A handshake is always appropriate and sufficient.
23. ALWAYS look good FIRST and nevermind how you feel. Feeling good is NOT important. Remember the key is to fake it!
22. Never show emotions! It's just WRONG!
21. Never admit any wrongdoings/faults/guilts because it is a sign of weakness.
20. Never take sincere compliments from your friends because they never mean them anyways.
19. Always have 'gengsi' a.k.a. save face because we love fake people. Real people sucks.
18. Weather-talk makes for great conversation & is the best way to connect with people. Never share your real thoughts & ideas because they are much too personal.
17. Always be politically correct. Being politically incorrect is always rude and inappropriate. Remember our roots to always 'jaga image' aka 'ja-im'! It's the only way to go.
16. Never take reponsibilities for your words & actions so that you will not look bad in the end.
15. Turn down every opportunites to meet new friends. Be exclusive & stick with your old crowd. It's much safer this way.
14. Don't forget to bribe your way to get what you want. Money always talks.
13. Never be on time because being on time is only for serious, stiff, uptight people. We Indos are laid back!
12. Never be straightforward. Always be passive agressive. Then they'll get it and it's the only way to go! Saying what you mean and meaning what you say is only for lame people.
11. Show off to your friends your branded personal belongings i.e. your LV, Prada, Gucci, Versace, etc. The bigger and more visible the item/logo, the more prominent it is; and therefore, the better.
10. Do not have any integrity whatsoever to your words/what you say. Just make things up as you go.
9. Indo parents : Always play blind and be in denial about your kids and their love lives.
8. Impose unreasonable, strict, harsh rules to your kids while they are growing up; so that when they leave home for the United States to go to 'school', they can go buckwild!
7. Pay someone to take your exams, do your projects, & get you through college. And buy your diploma.
6. Buy the most expensive car so that the valey guy can park it right upfront when there is the annual Indo U Club party. And remember, you ain't hip unless you are seen in a BENZ or BMW rollin in Beverly Hills!
5. Never dance in the club. Just have a cel phone on your left hand & a cigarette on your right and drink yourself to death. This is cool!
4. Attend all the Indo parties.
3. Indo girls : NEVER get a suntan! It's a sin & you'll be cursed for life. You'll never get a boyfriend & you can forget about marriage. Cover all parts of your body i.e. your arms & neck with long sleeve shirts while you are driving your car. Don't forget to use the umbrella when the sun is out.
2. Make sure you visit Beijing/China before you die. Monterey Park & Chinatown do NOT count!
1. Make sure you sign up with friendster and log in EVERY DAY. Have at least 500 friends just for show because IT IS all about competition of who can get the most friends.
Feel free to add more to these rules
Monday, April 16, 2007
WHY WOMEN FALL FOR 'MR AVERAGE'
High-flying men are not as attractive to women looking for love as those with an average job, scientists say.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the University of Central Lancashire research found the 186 female students asked preferred good-looking men.
But within that group, those without top careers were deemed most suitable, the Personality and Individual Differences journal reported.
The team said women seemed to feel high-flyers would not be good fathers.
Lead researcher Simon Chu said the high-earning career men were deemed to be "too good to be true".
"Under particular circumstances, high socio-economic status in males can be subtly counter-productive in terms of attractiveness as a long-term partner.
"We suggest that females see physically attractive, high status males as being more likely to pursue a mating strategy rather than a parenting strategy."
Using photographs of 60 men in their 20s, researchers asked students to rate them on a physical attractiveness scale.
Six from the good looking group, six considered average and six judged unattractive were then selected.
Profession
Alongside each photograph they added information on the man's age, what he was looking for in a partner and their profession.
The professions included high-status jobs such as architects and company directors, medium-status positions such as teachers or travel agents and so-called lower-status roles such as gardeners and postmen.
The researchers found that purely on looks, the best-looking men were assessed as the best partners.
But within this group, when professions were taken into account, those good-looking men with medium status jobs came out top.
Ingrid Collins, a consultant psychologist at the London Medical Centre, agreed potential parenting and providing skills were important.
"I think there will always be a pattern where women will take the lead in caring for the children.
"Because of this they will tend to go for someone who can look after and provide for their family."
MY COMMENT :
Well.. well... My girlfriend and I were talking abt the old familiar saying by some parents : "... Don't go for the best looking guy out there because you may have to sleep with you eyes open.."<:-D
Being superficial and shallow for a moment, just for the sake of this discussion; I have seen many instances, with the caveat that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, where in a couple, the woman is super fine and the guy is, well, not-so-fine. But the thing is he's loaded with money. Some may call the woman materialistic, which reminds me of that 'Simply Irresistable' song by Robert Palmer. There's a verse which fits perfectly here : "... she's so fine there's no telling where the money went.."
I guess this also may be the reason why I have met many guys who appear super confident because they have high-status, high-paying jobs. They are confident because they are also highly educated. I have observed that there is a higher tendency among males to think that what defines or makes them a man at a certain stage in their lives is what careers they have and how established their careers are. And for those women whose ultimate priority is to settle down rather than to find a good looking guy first and then to settle down with him, second; there is the answer. Though nowadays, many more women want someone who has both, good career and attractive looks.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the University of Central Lancashire research found the 186 female students asked preferred good-looking men.
But within that group, those without top careers were deemed most suitable, the Personality and Individual Differences journal reported.
The team said women seemed to feel high-flyers would not be good fathers.
Lead researcher Simon Chu said the high-earning career men were deemed to be "too good to be true".
"Under particular circumstances, high socio-economic status in males can be subtly counter-productive in terms of attractiveness as a long-term partner.
"We suggest that females see physically attractive, high status males as being more likely to pursue a mating strategy rather than a parenting strategy."
Using photographs of 60 men in their 20s, researchers asked students to rate them on a physical attractiveness scale.
Six from the good looking group, six considered average and six judged unattractive were then selected.
Profession
Alongside each photograph they added information on the man's age, what he was looking for in a partner and their profession.
The professions included high-status jobs such as architects and company directors, medium-status positions such as teachers or travel agents and so-called lower-status roles such as gardeners and postmen.
The researchers found that purely on looks, the best-looking men were assessed as the best partners.
But within this group, when professions were taken into account, those good-looking men with medium status jobs came out top.
Ingrid Collins, a consultant psychologist at the London Medical Centre, agreed potential parenting and providing skills were important.
"I think there will always be a pattern where women will take the lead in caring for the children.
"Because of this they will tend to go for someone who can look after and provide for their family."
MY COMMENT :
Well.. well... My girlfriend and I were talking abt the old familiar saying by some parents : "... Don't go for the best looking guy out there because you may have to sleep with you eyes open.."<:-D
Being superficial and shallow for a moment, just for the sake of this discussion; I have seen many instances, with the caveat that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, where in a couple, the woman is super fine and the guy is, well, not-so-fine. But the thing is he's loaded with money. Some may call the woman materialistic, which reminds me of that 'Simply Irresistable' song by Robert Palmer. There's a verse which fits perfectly here : "... she's so fine there's no telling where the money went.."
I guess this also may be the reason why I have met many guys who appear super confident because they have high-status, high-paying jobs. They are confident because they are also highly educated. I have observed that there is a higher tendency among males to think that what defines or makes them a man at a certain stage in their lives is what careers they have and how established their careers are. And for those women whose ultimate priority is to settle down rather than to find a good looking guy first and then to settle down with him, second; there is the answer. Though nowadays, many more women want someone who has both, good career and attractive looks.
Wednesday, April 11, 2007
WOMEN ARE BEST AT BEING BUDDIES
A four-year study by sociologists at The University of Manchester has found that women are much more likely than men to make deep and lasting friendships.
The investigation into social networks by the University's Research Centre for Socio-Cultural Change found that men are more fickle and calculating about who they should be friends with.
Women on the other hand, stand by their friends through thick and thin.
Adding to the bad news for male prestige, the study confirms the stereotype that men are likely to base their friendship on social drinking.
Of the 10,000 individuals studied who took part in the 1992 to 2002 British Household Panel Surveys, women are much more likely to stay with the same friends.
Single people, older people and white collar workers are also good at paring up.
Middle class people are more likely to cast their net of friendship far wider, whereas the working class tend to stick to their own kind.
Dr Gindo Tampubolon said the findings on female friendship were doubly significant because the data suggests we are much more likely socialise with people from our own gender - 75 per cent of best friends were with the same sex.
Dr Tampubolon, who is based at the School of Social Sciences, said: "Friendship between women seems to be fundamentally different to friendship between men.
"It's much deeper and more moral: it's about the relationship itself rather than what they can get out of it.
"Women tend to keep their friends through thick and thin across geography and social mobility.
"And women's view of friendship has something to do with how they express themselves and form their identity.
"Men, on the other hand are more fickle with their relationships and seem more interested in 'what's in it for me'".
He added: "The findings reflect our view that friendship is not a choice. We have contact with friends, family, neighbourhood and work which we are or are not able to turn into friendships.
"Middle class people are more adept at doing this and tend to define friendship more widely such as work, family and the pub.
"Working class people, on the other hand, are more limited: they're likely to form a best friend with another working class person."
Professor of Sociology Mike Savage said: "This research draws upon a tradition of inquiry known as social network analysis, developed by Professor John Barnes who was based here at the Victoria University of Manchester in 1952-1953.
"SNA is able to analyse social structures using a series of algorithms and we wanted explore its application in this area and others.
"It is now used widely by business including the Google search engine and Amazon's recommendations page.
"SNA is very relevant to the work of Harvard University's Professor Robert Putnam, and should inform our recently announced collaboration with Harvard on social change."
MY COMMENT :
It surely is an opinion here. I am a woman and I come with a woman's perspective. I think that friendship between two women can be rewarding. I have also seen friendship between opposite sex flourish. It all depends on the individuals and their goals. I can say my goal is to make friends and develop connections with those whom I think I can have a long term-fulfilling-quality friendship with.
I think both parties need to have similar goals regarding their friendship. Sometimes, the goal of establishing true friendship comes after the initial encounters or becomes more clear after other events have taken place. That is, sometimes people may have ulterior motives other than having the goal of wanting true friendship.
There needs to be mutual respect and both needs to want the friendship. One can initiate and just like in dating, the other needs to equally reciprocate.
These are some things that come into mind that may constitute as ulterior motives. As a couple, I have personally encountered another couple in which the woman in the relationship has a sole purpose of constantly seeking a compatible 'playdate' for her man. This, as it turns out, is her primary goal. Through a series of events and in retrospect, I discovered that she values friendship with women less and that pursuing friendship is not her priority; but that she values friendship most if a woman is in a relationship with a man and if the man she is in the relationship with, is compatible with her man. Needless to say, she likes having male friends who is compatible with her man.
Another scenario is when someone is interested in a mutual friend and needs a playing arena for them to meet so that the rest of the party becomes 'pseudo-friends' to acommodate the interested parties.
Just like with anything else, the most important part is to make sure that both parties are in agreement to the given situation. If that is the case, everything should run smoothly. That is, just like in dating, as long as both agree to where they stand with regards to their friendship, especially when there are other/special circumstances involved, such as those mentioned above, then all are good to go. Otherwise, potential misunderstanding, hurt, disappointments may follow.
The article pointed out that men tend to ask themselves 'what's in it for me?' Is this true guys??
For the most part, I seek friendship for emotional support, for entertainment, to share stories and have good times with. Sometimes friendship comes with drama and if that comes into play, i would just try to enjoy the ride the best way I know how. I have played different roles in the past. I've been a 100% spectator watching the lively drama from the sidelines. I've had a cameo, supporting, and starring/major roles as well. I can vouch that variety is the spice of life. The more people involved, the higher the potential for entertainment we have. And my experiences help shape me into who I am today. Another thing is : What's life without drama, right??!
The investigation into social networks by the University's Research Centre for Socio-Cultural Change found that men are more fickle and calculating about who they should be friends with.
Women on the other hand, stand by their friends through thick and thin.
Adding to the bad news for male prestige, the study confirms the stereotype that men are likely to base their friendship on social drinking.
Of the 10,000 individuals studied who took part in the 1992 to 2002 British Household Panel Surveys, women are much more likely to stay with the same friends.
Single people, older people and white collar workers are also good at paring up.
Middle class people are more likely to cast their net of friendship far wider, whereas the working class tend to stick to their own kind.
Dr Gindo Tampubolon said the findings on female friendship were doubly significant because the data suggests we are much more likely socialise with people from our own gender - 75 per cent of best friends were with the same sex.
Dr Tampubolon, who is based at the School of Social Sciences, said: "Friendship between women seems to be fundamentally different to friendship between men.
"It's much deeper and more moral: it's about the relationship itself rather than what they can get out of it.
"Women tend to keep their friends through thick and thin across geography and social mobility.
"And women's view of friendship has something to do with how they express themselves and form their identity.
"Men, on the other hand are more fickle with their relationships and seem more interested in 'what's in it for me'".
He added: "The findings reflect our view that friendship is not a choice. We have contact with friends, family, neighbourhood and work which we are or are not able to turn into friendships.
"Middle class people are more adept at doing this and tend to define friendship more widely such as work, family and the pub.
"Working class people, on the other hand, are more limited: they're likely to form a best friend with another working class person."
Professor of Sociology Mike Savage said: "This research draws upon a tradition of inquiry known as social network analysis, developed by Professor John Barnes who was based here at the Victoria University of Manchester in 1952-1953.
"SNA is able to analyse social structures using a series of algorithms and we wanted explore its application in this area and others.
"It is now used widely by business including the Google search engine and Amazon's recommendations page.
"SNA is very relevant to the work of Harvard University's Professor Robert Putnam, and should inform our recently announced collaboration with Harvard on social change."
MY COMMENT :
It surely is an opinion here. I am a woman and I come with a woman's perspective. I think that friendship between two women can be rewarding. I have also seen friendship between opposite sex flourish. It all depends on the individuals and their goals. I can say my goal is to make friends and develop connections with those whom I think I can have a long term-fulfilling-quality friendship with.
I think both parties need to have similar goals regarding their friendship. Sometimes, the goal of establishing true friendship comes after the initial encounters or becomes more clear after other events have taken place. That is, sometimes people may have ulterior motives other than having the goal of wanting true friendship.
There needs to be mutual respect and both needs to want the friendship. One can initiate and just like in dating, the other needs to equally reciprocate.
These are some things that come into mind that may constitute as ulterior motives. As a couple, I have personally encountered another couple in which the woman in the relationship has a sole purpose of constantly seeking a compatible 'playdate' for her man. This, as it turns out, is her primary goal. Through a series of events and in retrospect, I discovered that she values friendship with women less and that pursuing friendship is not her priority; but that she values friendship most if a woman is in a relationship with a man and if the man she is in the relationship with, is compatible with her man. Needless to say, she likes having male friends who is compatible with her man.
Another scenario is when someone is interested in a mutual friend and needs a playing arena for them to meet so that the rest of the party becomes 'pseudo-friends' to acommodate the interested parties.
Just like with anything else, the most important part is to make sure that both parties are in agreement to the given situation. If that is the case, everything should run smoothly. That is, just like in dating, as long as both agree to where they stand with regards to their friendship, especially when there are other/special circumstances involved, such as those mentioned above, then all are good to go. Otherwise, potential misunderstanding, hurt, disappointments may follow.
The article pointed out that men tend to ask themselves 'what's in it for me?' Is this true guys??
For the most part, I seek friendship for emotional support, for entertainment, to share stories and have good times with. Sometimes friendship comes with drama and if that comes into play, i would just try to enjoy the ride the best way I know how. I have played different roles in the past. I've been a 100% spectator watching the lively drama from the sidelines. I've had a cameo, supporting, and starring/major roles as well. I can vouch that variety is the spice of life. The more people involved, the higher the potential for entertainment we have. And my experiences help shape me into who I am today. Another thing is : What's life without drama, right??!
Wednesday, February 14, 2007
GENDER ISSUES : COMMUNICATION DIFFERENCES IN INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS
Aahhh... how appropriate! A refresher course on 'Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus'.. on Valentine's Day!<:-D
Cynthia Burggraf Torppa, Ph.D.,
Family and Consumer Sciences Agent, Morrow County,
Ohio State University Extension, The Ohio State University
A lot of media attention has been devoted to the idea that women and men communicate very differently—in fact, it is sometimes stated that women and men communicate so differently from one another that they must come from different planets! Although at times differences in women's and men's communication styles seem to be constant and overwhelming, they are really quite minor. For example, both women and men can be nurturing, aggressive, task-focused, or sentimental. What is important to think about, however, is that women and men sometimes perceive the same messages to have different meanings. In fact, it may be as a result of the differences in message interpretation that the "battle of the sexes" occurs.
Studies indicate that women, to a greater extent than men, are sensitive to the interpersonal meanings that lie "between the lines" in the messages they exchange with their mates. That is, societal expectations often make women responsible for regulating intimacy, or how close they allow others to come. For that reason, it is argued that women pay more attention than men to the underlying meanings about intimacy that messages imply. Men on the other hand, to a greater extent than women, are more sensitive to "between the lines meanings" about status. For men, societal expectations are that they must negotiate hierarchy, or who's the captain and who's the crew (Tannen, 1990; Wood, 2001).
These differences in emphasis on interpersonal vs. status implications of messages typically lead women to expect relationships to be based on interdependence (mutual dependence) and cooperation. Women more frequently emphasize the similarities between themselves and others, and try to make decisions that make everyone happy. In contrast, it is more typical for men to expect relationships to be based on independence and competition. Men more frequently emphasize the differences between themselves and others, and often make decisions based on their personal needs or desires.
How are these differences seen in marriage? In the ways women and men communicate! Women tend to be the relationship specialists and men tend to be task specialists. Women are typically the experts in "rapport talk" which refers to the types of communication that build, maintain, and strengthen relationships. Rapport talk reflects skills of talking, nurturing, emotional expression, empathy, and support. Men are typically the experts in task accomplishment and addressing questions about facts. They are experts in "report talk," which refers to the types of communication that analyzes issues and solves problems. Report talk reflects skills of being competitive, lacking sentimentality, analyzing, and focusing aggressively on task accomplishment.
These differences can create specific, and commonly experienced, misunderstandings. Here are two examples:
Misunderstanding #1
He: I'm really tired. I have so much work to do—I don't know how I'm going to get it done!
She: Me, too. There just aren't enough hours in the day!
He: There you go again! You never think my contributions to this marriage are good enough!
In this conversation, she is trying to communicate something like "We're partners and share similar experiences." Her intended "between the lines" message is: "I understand what you're going through; you're not alone." The "between the lines" message he hears emphasizes competition for status: "What are you complaining about? You aren't any better than I am!" or "Your contributions to our marriage aren't any more significant than mine!"
Misunderstanding #2
She: I'm really tired. I have so much work to do—I don't know how I'm going to get it done!
He: Why don't you take a day off and rest, if you're so tired?
She: (sarcastically) Thanks a lot! You think my contribution to this household is so trivial that I can do nothing and the difference won't even be noticed?
Here, he is trying to communicate something like "Oh, you need advice and analysis? I'll focus on the details and facts, and offer a solution." His intended "between the lines" message is: "I will help you solve your problem because I think I know something that might help." The "between the lines" message she hears him saying: "I don't want to understand your feelings; I'm different from you and I know what you should do."
The problems here result from some subtle differences in the ways that women and men approach problems. Women sometimes deal with problems (especially emotional concerns) by talking about them, sharing their feelings, and matching experiences with others. This can be frustrating to men, who more typically deal with problems by focusing on the facts and seeking an immediate solution. Occasionally, men perceive women to be ungrateful for the advice and solutions they offer and ponder in frustration why women don't want to resolve their problems! Similarly, when men offer a solution, rather than talking about a problem, women may feel hurt, dissatisfied, and put-down by the lack of empathy men show.
The misunderstandings in these examples probably result from differences in the ways that women and men show affection. It is more common for women to show affection through talking, but it is more common for men to show affection by doing things—either doing things together or doing separate things within the same physical space. Sometimes not talking—not having to talk—is a sign of trust and intimacy for men.
What does all this mean to us?
Understanding differences is the key to working them out. When we misunderstand one another, we often think that the other's motives are not reasonable, are mean spirited, or worse! But by knowing that women and men sometimes see—and hear!—things through different filters, we can begin to share with one other the distortions we experience, and thereby find our way to clarity.
So, the next time you feel surprised, disappointed, or angry with someone's response to something you have said, ask yourself if he or she may have "misheard" you. Is the other responding to your problems with a solution, when you wanted to receive sympathy? Is the other responding to your message of affection with a message of status? If so, you will be able to help the other to understand the source of your miscommunication, and avoid the hurt feelings and conflicts that sometimes follow.
Cynthia Burggraf Torppa, Ph.D.,
Family and Consumer Sciences Agent, Morrow County,
Ohio State University Extension, The Ohio State University
A lot of media attention has been devoted to the idea that women and men communicate very differently—in fact, it is sometimes stated that women and men communicate so differently from one another that they must come from different planets! Although at times differences in women's and men's communication styles seem to be constant and overwhelming, they are really quite minor. For example, both women and men can be nurturing, aggressive, task-focused, or sentimental. What is important to think about, however, is that women and men sometimes perceive the same messages to have different meanings. In fact, it may be as a result of the differences in message interpretation that the "battle of the sexes" occurs.
Studies indicate that women, to a greater extent than men, are sensitive to the interpersonal meanings that lie "between the lines" in the messages they exchange with their mates. That is, societal expectations often make women responsible for regulating intimacy, or how close they allow others to come. For that reason, it is argued that women pay more attention than men to the underlying meanings about intimacy that messages imply. Men on the other hand, to a greater extent than women, are more sensitive to "between the lines meanings" about status. For men, societal expectations are that they must negotiate hierarchy, or who's the captain and who's the crew (Tannen, 1990; Wood, 2001).
These differences in emphasis on interpersonal vs. status implications of messages typically lead women to expect relationships to be based on interdependence (mutual dependence) and cooperation. Women more frequently emphasize the similarities between themselves and others, and try to make decisions that make everyone happy. In contrast, it is more typical for men to expect relationships to be based on independence and competition. Men more frequently emphasize the differences between themselves and others, and often make decisions based on their personal needs or desires.
How are these differences seen in marriage? In the ways women and men communicate! Women tend to be the relationship specialists and men tend to be task specialists. Women are typically the experts in "rapport talk" which refers to the types of communication that build, maintain, and strengthen relationships. Rapport talk reflects skills of talking, nurturing, emotional expression, empathy, and support. Men are typically the experts in task accomplishment and addressing questions about facts. They are experts in "report talk," which refers to the types of communication that analyzes issues and solves problems. Report talk reflects skills of being competitive, lacking sentimentality, analyzing, and focusing aggressively on task accomplishment.
These differences can create specific, and commonly experienced, misunderstandings. Here are two examples:
Misunderstanding #1
He: I'm really tired. I have so much work to do—I don't know how I'm going to get it done!
She: Me, too. There just aren't enough hours in the day!
He: There you go again! You never think my contributions to this marriage are good enough!
In this conversation, she is trying to communicate something like "We're partners and share similar experiences." Her intended "between the lines" message is: "I understand what you're going through; you're not alone." The "between the lines" message he hears emphasizes competition for status: "What are you complaining about? You aren't any better than I am!" or "Your contributions to our marriage aren't any more significant than mine!"
Misunderstanding #2
She: I'm really tired. I have so much work to do—I don't know how I'm going to get it done!
He: Why don't you take a day off and rest, if you're so tired?
She: (sarcastically) Thanks a lot! You think my contribution to this household is so trivial that I can do nothing and the difference won't even be noticed?
Here, he is trying to communicate something like "Oh, you need advice and analysis? I'll focus on the details and facts, and offer a solution." His intended "between the lines" message is: "I will help you solve your problem because I think I know something that might help." The "between the lines" message she hears him saying: "I don't want to understand your feelings; I'm different from you and I know what you should do."
The problems here result from some subtle differences in the ways that women and men approach problems. Women sometimes deal with problems (especially emotional concerns) by talking about them, sharing their feelings, and matching experiences with others. This can be frustrating to men, who more typically deal with problems by focusing on the facts and seeking an immediate solution. Occasionally, men perceive women to be ungrateful for the advice and solutions they offer and ponder in frustration why women don't want to resolve their problems! Similarly, when men offer a solution, rather than talking about a problem, women may feel hurt, dissatisfied, and put-down by the lack of empathy men show.
The misunderstandings in these examples probably result from differences in the ways that women and men show affection. It is more common for women to show affection through talking, but it is more common for men to show affection by doing things—either doing things together or doing separate things within the same physical space. Sometimes not talking—not having to talk—is a sign of trust and intimacy for men.
What does all this mean to us?
Understanding differences is the key to working them out. When we misunderstand one another, we often think that the other's motives are not reasonable, are mean spirited, or worse! But by knowing that women and men sometimes see—and hear!—things through different filters, we can begin to share with one other the distortions we experience, and thereby find our way to clarity.
So, the next time you feel surprised, disappointed, or angry with someone's response to something you have said, ask yourself if he or she may have "misheard" you. Is the other responding to your problems with a solution, when you wanted to receive sympathy? Is the other responding to your message of affection with a message of status? If so, you will be able to help the other to understand the source of your miscommunication, and avoid the hurt feelings and conflicts that sometimes follow.
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